First & Maimed
Well, now Rack Room Shoes, a chain store, is closing at First & Main. Another one bites the dust. Of course, it’s easy to go out of business when Blacksburg Town Council a few years ago prevented any sort of anchor store from coming into Blacksburg.
I am amazed that El Rodeo finally got to open there after trying since the beginning. One of the people working there told me it was town regulations making them change everything that caused the delay. I don’t know if that is the case; what business owner thinks the approval process goes smoothly?
So what is next for First & Main?
Well, another business is leaving, but moving across the street. Clix is leaving and heading over to the former Nanosonic location.
So Blacksburg Town Council, let me ask you this. What are you going to do about it? In all fairness, not all of you were on council when this debacle started and the main anti-big-boxer will not be on council at the beginning of the year. However, when downtown was floundering, you formed a revitalization committee. You came up with slogans. You did everything to save downtown. It seems to be working. So what are you going to do to fix the mess that has been created with First & Main? Don’t give me the “it is not what was presented to us” nonsense. It is what it is. You are so busy trying to get VT to pay taxes, but focus on bringing in more revenue. Repeal that asinine 1450 thing or whatever it is now. Or make it less restrictive. RECRUIT! Wal-Mart may be undesirable, but what about Kohl’s? Target? Some place where the average person can get underwear, kids clothes, shoes and more without having to spend a small fortune.
So what will it be Council?
And a special thanks to John B, one council member who always takes the time to get involved in the debate.
A Kohl’s would be awesome! And if you ask me, a much needed addition to the area. The clothing shopping choices around here are terribly limited.
Go ahead and let it die; maybe other big box developers and chain franchise owners will see that we don’t want that trash in Blacksburg. OP, you should move to Christiansburg, where all your corporate shopping desires can be satisfied.
Mark- Let it die? Then what? A bunch of buildings that become eye sores and run down? What do you want to do, raze first & main and then let it become pasture? First and Main was a great concept that only needed a solid anchor and it would have been a tax boom for BBurg. Instead, it’s an embarrassment.
Mark – Where do you buy kid’s clothes? Or toiletries? Or ziploc bags? The majority of people who live in this town HAVE to drive to Christiansburg to get every day things because they can’t afford to do all their grocery shopping at Annie Kays or Eats. Nor would they want to.
if you dont like it, stay the fuck out of christiansburg dickweed
Blacksburg is only as good as it’s leadership, which currently is ZERO. The 1st & main debacle ought to get anyone who on council at the time, and the Town Mgr, fired. What’s the town gonna do when it’s completely vacant?
Mark, I happen to disagree that letting it die is the right decision, and i won’t try and convince you otherwise, but am interested to hear why you think it would be appropriate. Hope you’ll decide to share.
It’s a myth that a big box would act as an anchor. Look at the old shopping center across the street from WalMArt in Christiansburg now. That has every kind of anchor around it — WalMart, Target, Lowe’s Home Deport, Best Buy, and it is completely empty. You cannot confuse correlation and causation. Did Awful Arthur’s go down because there was no big box? Don’t you think that the economy has a LITTLE something to do with the problem? Have any of you talked to retailers in the First and Main development? The rent is atrocious, and the landlords unreliable.
No, town council is here to protect us from the empty storefronts. We shouldn’t raze First and Main — it should never have come here in the first place. It was a poorly conceived idea by people out of touch with the community hoping to make a buck. A WalMart would have floundered eventually as well — but then we would have the empty first and main, as well as an empty bigbox ala The Marketplace in Chrsitiansburg. Overdeveloped, worthless sprawl.
Nick V. I have kids who have clothes. I wear clean socks and underwear every day. I have ziplock bags. I go where I need to go to get them. I buy groceries at Kroger, and sometimes I go over to Food Lion. Walmart is not the ONLY place to purchase goods in this country. That tired old underwear story is overused. Driving the extra 5 miles to Christiansburg isn’t going to break the bank for you I am sure. It’s a simple inconvenience for lazy people/.
Dave, Anchors have to be attached by safe side walks and common parking areas to be considered “anchors”. Target and Walmart in CBurg are not contiguous to the Staples shopping center and therefore are not “anchors”. Walmart is actually a “stand alone” and Target is an anchor for it’s little shopping center.
The old Books a Million strip was cleared out by the landlord to make way for a Sam’s Club that never happened. Tractor Supply would have stayed, for instance.
First and Main is having Landlord problems, too. The Bank is requiring tenants to sign a three-year lease, which is too big a commitment in this economy for most people.
Dave ~
The marketplace will be another post here at some point. That is another debacle. Thanks for the reminder.
Most people don’t mind the drive to Christiansburg, really. What they DO mind is letting this thing get built and then having council do all in its power to keep it from surviving. Punish the businesses to spite the developer? The other issue is not laziness, but council complaining VT doesn’t pay its fair share while keeping legitimate revenue out of town. I would rather see something besides Wal-Mart, but because their name was seen on paperwork somewhere, council and some folks got all upset and started an anti-Wal-Mart campaign. They had anti-Wal-Mart signs in their yard. I think had it been a more socially acceptable store mentioned, it would have been fine. Then we all could shop local.
Mark ~
Corporate desires satisfied? I just want to shop in Blacksburg for stuff I need. Can’t do that now, corporate or not.
Sounds like some people would liek to restore First and Main to the crack house motel that was there before it was torn down.
I see two groups of people opposed to First and Main:
1) The people in the neighbourhood have been opposed to anything that would increase traffic at that end of town. The efforts of a few people on Southgate drive to reduce traffic on that road verge on hysterical. Like it or not, it is an artery for people on the other side of campus to access the retails stores on that side of town. I drive through there regularly and have done so for many, many years.
2) The people who do not like big box stores. These are a very vocal minority in the community. I suspect that a number of them also frequent big box stores to save money.
From my point of view, I do not buy a lot of stuff locally. When I do shop locally, most of my Blacksburg dollars go to Blue Ridge Mountain Sports in F&M. The rest go to stores in Christiansburg. All the good stuff comes from the internet.
For the people opposed to Big Box stores, instead of quoting random studies that support your point of view, describe your personal shopping habits. That would be far more useful data for everyone. I would love to hear where you buy your underwear
, mine comes from Target.
Finally, what concrete actions has the town made to assist F&M? Although based on the downtown empty store fronts, I’m not sure that the town’s help would be very useful.
I have lived in bigger areas, Richmond and Raleigh. I personally think Blacksburg needs better shopping and amenities. We all pay an arm and a leg to live in Blacksburg and deserve it. I’ve never understood the mentality to keep progress away. The hatred for Walmart, Target or whatever for this area makes no sense when we all know that everyone that voted against getting them shops at the same places in Christiansburg. If it has to do with keeping ‘old town charm’, get over that. This is a college town and our main street is covered in bars, college stores and empty store fronts, which do not scream ‘old town charm’. We obviously need to do something different to keep some of the retail revenue in our little area… A Kohls, Target or (God forbid) a Walmart isn’t going to kill Blacksburg…
I used to live off South Main when First and Main was first developed and liked the convenience of more stores close by. I bought a suit at Joseph A. Bank, took dates to Maggie Moo’s, and had an occasional dinner at Bull & Bones. I’ve eaten at Sal’s too, although I prefer Zeppoli’s for Italian food. My point is that I recognize the benefit of having more shopping choices in Blacksburg. I probably average driving to Christiansburg once a week to take advantage of their retailers — mostly Target, Home Depot, Ross, and Old Navy.
Kohl’s would be great to have in Blacksburg. Target would be cool too. Although they don’t have the building for it as of now, I think having a movie theater that plays current movies would be perfect for First and Main.
Walmart is way too trashy though. I wouldn’t support a Walmart in our town. Almost any other retail stores (besides K-Mart) would be fine by me.
Kevin, I do not shop at Walmart. In the last ten years, I’ve purchased one cheap paddle at Walmart (and since list it, which is why I need a cheap paddle).
The problem is we have little say in what gets built because we are not the people risking our money on a project. The people taking the risk, do the best they can to make a profit on the deal. And sadly, most people do not dislike Walmart
It would be great of the Town would actively work with developers to bring stores we like to town. Unfortunately, most of the current town council views for profit developers as eveil beings not to be trusted (John Bush basically said that about the current middle school proposal in the CT). Until Council changes their attitude, Blacksburg will remain a town of bars, empty store fronts, vacant lots, and falling down buildings.
Two words: Trader Joe’s. The NRV needs one desperately and it would be a good draw even from people who don’t live in Blacksburg because there isn’t much for competition in the area.
I am going to post some comments here for several reasons. Because of the length it will be in several posts.
I will say first that what I post or say here are my thoughts and no one else’s; no other elected officials, staff or otherwise are responsible for my posts.
I enjoy the back and forth of ideas and folks who care about their town and those who like to argue and post in good faith. I welcome your input and creativity.
I do not enjoy ad hominem attacks or baseless assertions like Philip’s above. (There is a past history with one of the potential developers. They have sued the town on two occasions and the town has won both times. This is a fact. People are not entitled to their own set of facts. I stand by my statements. Trust does need to be rebuilt and I think it is very possible and likely that it can and will be rebuilt and I will do everything in my power to help make that happen. But it will take both sides good faith efforts. There are all kinds of developers Philip. I have worked with many, many folks to get buildings built and plans approved and development moving along. I am a professional and licensed Virginia architect and to say that I think developers are evil is an example of the kind of statement that I cannot abide. Please do better or refrain.)
Additionally the other preamble statement I will say is that while I am not anonymous most of you are. And while I do know TBB’s identity I do not know the rest of you. If you have something to say to me, come find me and let’s talk. It’s not hard to do. I am quite visible in town and usually enjoy a good conversation.
Additionally, what I say here you may not agree with, as I do not agree with several statements or assertions made both in the post and in the comments. That’s ok and we can still get along if we want to and argue in good faith.
And also, I was not on council during the First and Main discussion. I had no role in decisions that the council made for or against rezoning of the parcels that are now F & M. I was a citizen who was paying close attention to what the council did do and what Fairmount originally presented. So, I am familiar with the history and I have many friends and neighbors who live in the adjacent neighborhoods to the development.
Additionally, I do patronize several businesses at the F & M mall. Jos A Bank, Sal’s, Bull and Bones (was there this past Sunday for a party) and occasionally the sushi place. Also, my youngest son is a waiter at Sal’s and I know Joe personally and I would like to think that both of us like each other quite a bit. I also know Jim at B & B who is the brewmiester. I count him as a good friend as well.
The town does care about all of our commercial and residential and institutional property, First and Main included. We have reached out on many occasions and are still willing to listen to anyone who brings forward good ideas. The current owners are trying to sell and have not been willing to work with the town recently on bringing forward new development opportunities. Additionally, one of our council members routinely sits in on F&M meetings. We want this development to succeed, End of story.
Also, town infrastructure supports the development including but not limited to the transit bus lines. But, we have been experiencing a once in a lifetime recession that has hurt businesses all over the country, the state, the region and the town. We have empty storefronts both at F&M and at the University City mall and downtown. I have seen businesses come and go in my 27 years here in Blacksburg. Clearly, a business’s success or failure depends on many variables such as the economic climate, a realistic business plan and monetary backing and timing among others. It is simply not fair to state that the council either in the past or presently constituted is the cause or reason for a business’s failure or success. And I for one do not accept the argument that even if a so called big box store, Wal-Mart or otherwise, had been built that the situation that the development or the town now finds themselves in would be materially different. But again, that is not my job to make a case for or against why some commercial developments prosper and some do not. What I do have to think about is whether adjacencies of differing types of development are appropriate or not and whether the land use proposed fits into the comp plan and what my constituents want. And some of my constituents are business owners. They want to see business opportunities that support existing businesses and no one wants to see a structure become empty and then hurt the surrounding community. IMO a good developer would bring the kinds of businesses that a community could support and not one that would be divisive or problematic. There were plenty of opportunities to do or propose something different and plenty of mistakes were made. We need to move forward.
I must also state that support for the downtown is of a categorical different nature than support for other commercial enterprises. In a nutshell this is why: The historic downtown is over 200 years old. It represents our collective past of both the town and the university. It is our identity and our collective soul. We have to help it prosper. It is fitting and right that we do so and I can recount many ways that the town and private interests have worked and are working together to help make the area between Prices Fork and the old MS area a thriving beautiful area that is pedestrian friendly. Our downtown and town gown edge has to thrive or we will lose everything that any of us could ever want for our town, First and Main included.
It makes no sense that one neighborhood (downtown) should receive preferential treatment over another neighborhood. South Main is a community with a personality of its own… slightly too far to walk downtown, but a perfect microcosm for thousands of residents to walk to services.
As a matter of fact, I have driven the stretch from 7-11 to CVS hundreds of times, and pedestrian traffic is ALWAYS heaviest in the South Main area. We are a growing a community in transition: transitioning from the “dive” end of town to a very desirable, affordable walking community with great restaurants, excellent shopping, vets, doctors, dentists, churches and (unlike downtown) parking.
University is another thriving community, not as full service as South Main, but a separate neighborhood also in need of fostering.
If a town council member has a personal preference for one community over another –say because he ranks history higher than parking– he will inevitably make decisions that move in favor of his favorite situation. The best decisions are compromises that are a win-win for all communities within the township. Every community need to thrive, and council members need to stop their knee-jerk reactions and panic that the success of one community will come only at the detriment of another.
John, you say you support the “edges” as well as the gray hole in the middle, but sadly, your support of the ridiculous amount of money that was spent renovating downtown from Prices Fork to College makes me wonder. The result may be a slightly more pedestrian friendly –and pretty– situation (although I have my doubts since visibility at a lot of the crosswalks has deteriorated), but without parking, there is little to attract people downtown. [ I can't tell you the number of times we've thought about going down to the Frosty Parrot for a treat, but decided it was just not worth driving around for 20 minutes looking for a spot.] It would have been better NOT to spend the money and reduce the crazy restaurant tax to something more like the 5% in most towns in NOVA. It would have been better to build another parking garage–with free 3 hour parking–if you wanted to help downtown prosper.
The developer of First and Main did all that sidewalk improvement, lights and landscaping but when it came time for him to assume a reasonable return on his investment, the Southgate Mafia staged a campaign to force him into bankruptcy. He razed the blight in South Main and got screwed for making our lives better. Sadly, the town council’s conscience was not even slightly bothered about taking all the improvements for nothing, with no expectation of ever having to reimburse the developer or allow him a business model where he could recoup his investment. I’ve felt many moments of embarrassment to be part of a town that took so much and gave so little in return.
I agree with you, Jon, about the parking downtown. We tried to eat at El Rod’s the other night and the place was packed, with no parking anywhere. I remembered that the new place had just opened at F&M so we headed down there. It was a treat — easy parking right behind it (yeah, we had to walk a few steps, so?), nice decor, no crowd of noisy students, but the same menu with the same good food. I hope they are able to hang in there, because I would rather eat there instead of the one on N. Main now.
As far as parking garages go, Bob Pack has gotten some nice sweetheart deals from the town, so it matters who you are. He got away with his eyesore subdivision for over a year, right next to downtown, with burned-out and semi-demolished houses and overgrown weeds and no action from the town (but the neighborhood narc is pretty quick to cite homeowners for less). The town put up a nice chunk of change to help him build Kent Square with a promise of free parking on Saturday nights between 2 and 4 a.m. and payment from the revenue at some point in time. Has there been any payback yet or is he still playing the “I haven’t made any money on the place yet?” card to keep the town from collecting on the debt? The F&M developers didn’t get much of a break, they got an onerous ordinance pulled on them after they started their project, then had to spend lots of money in court battles. Yeah, Blacksburg is business friendly.
on
I think what your saying, Joe, is that the town picks and chooses who they like (by how much they are courted and coddled) and who gets to make money and who gets to lose money. So the F&M developers didn’t play nice and are being punished (rightly or wrongly) and Bob Pack and Kroger brown-nose and get rewarded. Is it more? Are there “favors” for council folk?
Jon, that favors comment was low and uncalled for.
*you’re
Not necessarily. I’m trying to understand why the government goodies are distributed unequally.
I just returned from a shopping expedition to the South Main retail complex. If you look around, you can see that the area is basically quite healthy, in spite of efforts by various citizens groups to move all retail downtown. Maybe, if town council stopped doing favours for downtown businesses, they would also prosper! OMG, I am channelling Ron Paul! (Please avoid the follow ups about how keeping Walmart and Sonic of South Main have led to this situation)
Now I am about to make a smart assed remark. Please stop reading now if you think you will not like it.
Jon, simple, more BURG members own businesses downtown than in the South Main retail area.
(I do not actually know if this is true, or if BUNG is still an active group. There is only one update in the past town years.)
No, Jon, there aren’t any actual “favors” exchanged, I believe that the town council members are above that. But I do believe that it is a case that some pigs are more equal than others, and it doesn’t matter if it is out-of-town or local. After all, Jeanne Stosser is local but is not trusted by some (all?) of the town council because of some past dealings on several of her projects, not just F&M. But Bob Pack managed to slide in there and get handed a pot of money (even though Don Langrher doesn’t like him, per the profile in last Sunday’s watered-down Current, The Burgs) for Kent Square and he escaped any kind of sanctions for his run-down property that is now under development behind Wendy’s. Kroger is a different story, it managed to get its big new store approved right before the anti-big-box ordinance hit the books, so it was a just-in-time deal. Note that the corporation came calling with a big bag of goodies, though, to grease the skids to get its UCB gas station approved, though. The local folks clued in the corporate guys about how to play the game in Blacksburg, knowing that there would be opposition to overcome no matter how safe and how nice the place would be. So extra landscaping, a new traffic light, and other extras (which Kroger had to eat the cost for) had to be offered right off the bat. Would things have gone better for F&M if those developers had thrown in even more “extras” than they were forced to pony up? Probably not, given that they were fighting BURG, which stacked the deck against any developer.
Now I would like to respond to some particular comments:
TBB, I know the architect that helped with El Rodeo. He knows the town, lives in the town and is more than competent at what he does. Talk to him if you have some questions about what took El Rodeo so long. I can assure you it wasn’t the Town.
The VT meals tax issue is not relevant to this discussion. And besides, we are capable of and should work on more than one issue at a time.
TBB, no one is punishing the businesses to spite the developer. That’s nonsense. I know you live in Cburg and work in Bburg. We are neighboring and complementary communities that IMO are becoming more alike all the time. Why should Bburg try to compete with what Cburg is already doing very well? I don’t mind going to Cburg when I need to and I try to shop as locally as I can in both communities. I can and do drive my personal vehicle, take a bus or bike on the Huckleberry. I often patronize several restaurants in Cburg and shop for some needs at the Southern States store or Heavener’s or Feed and Seed and you are just going to have to trust me when I say that I never have had a problem with obtaining socks and underwear or finding tacks for my needs at let’s say Mish Mish. We have complementary strategies and we should embrace that, especially since the way the sales tax works both towns get exactly the same amount no matter where the sale is made.
Let’s stop squabbling between the perceived differences and work towards making both communities active thriving healthy sister communities that get all kinds of benefits from being 8 miles apart. We have a top 50 research institution and land grant university allied with the ACC, a prizewinning corporate research park and a beautiful town and our neighbor to the south has a burgeoning commercial district in two different locations, county services including but not limited to the courts and schools, and beautiful new aquatic center among other amenities. Let’s work on those things and let me state in closing that I will personally do anything I can to help make the F&M center successful now and in the future and I will do everything to evaluate the proposals from both Modea and the Fiddlers Green consortium based on the shared Master plan document and the Town’s Long Range comprehensive plan.
My best to all of you in this holiday season.
Thank you John. What would you suggest council should do? You were not on the council at the time and inherited this mess.
BTW, I only stated El Rodeo said the town was the problem. He had no way of knowing that I had knowledge of the process. Had I disagreed, I would have feared for my dinner.
Once again, I have no problem going elsewhere to shop. I just want ALL business in Blacksburg to be supported, not just a select area.
The article I refer to is here:
http://www.collegiatetimes.com/stories/18746/property-contract-brings-controversy
It is obvious John has issues with the developer. Quite frankly, in his position saying less would have been a better move for the town image point of view. Finally, I expect elected officials to have thicker skins
He also omitted the entire Sonic fiasco.
A good developer does projects that earn them enough money to do other projects. Sadly, most people in this area want to go to Walmart like stores. This makes me sad, but not angry.
You wouldn’t have an issues with a developer who likes to lawyer up and cost the town money for no particular reason?
John, Thanks for a well reasoned and rational response. It was desperately needed.
I second the vote for Trader Joe’s. I lived in Atlanta for many years and would regularly drive 1/2 hour to get to one. Now whenever I pass a TJ’s I make a point to stop in and stock up on my favorite staples. I wouldn’t be surprised if people would come to Blacksburg from Roanoke and other outlying areas just to shop there.
Or a Fresh Market.
The company that manages F&M also manages the site in Roanoke that has a Fresh Market.
Unfortunately, there is one other issue that can come into play in these situations. The owner of the property can very well end up making out better by having the buildings be empty and using them as a tax write off.
Has anyone checked into who the developer originally tried to seduce into coming to Blacksburg and who turned down the opportunity. Perhaps, if there were turn downs, it would be wise to take a look at why such companies turned down the opportunity.
I’m seeing a lot of finger-pointing but not much in the way of seeing anyone digging into what actually caused the problem. Perhaps that would shed some useful light. Or, if those who already know the answers to those questions, would simply share that information, it would make more sense to citizens. Clearly, no one is breaking down the doors to move any big stores of any quality into town.
bystander, it sounds like the bank owns First and Main now. I’m having a hard time figuring out how they will be better off with it empty. But I would suspect they just want to sell the property and not invest money in it.
Here lies the issue, the public remarks (by citizens and council members) throughout the entire First and Main process create the appearance that retail development (outside a very narrow scope) is not desired in Blacksburg by an influential group of people. So, it is likely very difficult to market struggling retail properties to a company that could turn the situation around.
The big comedy here is that after the “Walmart” fiasco, town council turned around and rubber stamped the big box sized Krogers adjacent to the proposed Walmart. WTF?
So there are a lot of issues on all sides.
The town every once in a while makes an effort to show it is “business friendly” but things never really go anywhere. Part of the problem is the town has too many regulations. Remember the doggie day care center on N. Main that was just about to be shut down about a year ago? There weren’t any definitions that covered it in the town codes, so the town was ready to declare it a “kennel” with all the stringent rules that applied. The people would have been run out of business trying to comply, even though they weren’t running a kennel. Then there is the Sonic, which was saddled with a bunch of stupid things like the volume of the music and the time it had to be shuf off among other things — all at the urging of the BURG types who really didn’t want the business in the first place. That led an exasperated Paul Lancaster to wonder, “If you can’t build a drive-in restaurant on business 460, then where can you build one?” The thumb of government on private property owners in Blacksburg continues to bear down, one just has to ask the guy trying to open the restaurant in the old Taylor Frame house or the Irish Pub in the former fraternity house next to Stellar One on N. Main. Despite the cry of “sustainability” from the town, it blocked Blacksburg Baptist Church from doing what it wanted with its property downtown so it could expand where it is in walking distance for a lot of people. The church was prevented from demolishing several “historic” houses, so now it is building a new building far out on N. Main St. where new roads and parking lots must be built and utilities extended and everyone will be required to drive to reach it. Developers and contractors have said in the past that they prefer to work just about anywhere than within the town limits because there are more hoops to jump through to get a job done.
I was absolutely flabbergasted when the town gave preferential treatment to the Big Box Kroger over Walmart. Kroger put in a Sushi bar to push Sake House out of business; a health food section to push Annie Kayes and Eats out of business; a bistro (that doesn’t collect the 11% sales tax) to push out area restaurants and a wine section to push against Vintage Cellar and Zeppolis. The housewares isles are LOADED with items made in China.
No discussion, no transparency, just a rubber stamp. Thank God for Oasis or I would go hungry. I refuse to shop at a store that imports everything from China and tries to put family owned businesses out of business.
John, thanks for taking the time to chime in. This discussion has centered around F&M, which is an extremely complicated issue, and one that can’t be solved tonight. I know that council has had a hand in working with the businesses at F&M in trying to keep them upright and positive, and I know that’s appreciated. I don’t think anyone can realistically say that they think Blacksburg has just let F&M die …
Rather than focus on F&M, I’d like to talk about downtown. The slogan says to Buy Local, Eat Local, Live Local. My wife and I just moved this week to downtown Blacksburg, as a way to see whether or not we could really do all three, and I suspect that we’ll like being here. But I’ll tell you that I’ve become increasingly frustrated over the years with the selection of retail (and I’m lumping it all in together, restaurant/service/retail, etc.) available in Blacksburg, and I doubt living down here is going to affect my opinion on that much.
I’ve spoken about this on Twitter over the last few months, and have mentioned *some* of my concern to one of your fellow Council members. There seems to be two very distinct camps in Blacksburg, when it comes to the retail environment – there’s the camp that caters primarily – if not, it could be argued, exclusively – to the student population, and there’s the camp that caters to the rest of us … and the students. The first camp – your sub shops, bars and tattoo parlors – seem to be doing just fine, economy-be-damned, while the other camp seems to always struggle. Now, as a member of the second camp I know that I have to patronize those stores, and the Town has spent a lot of time – and dollars – trying to design a Main Street promenade that would entice me to sroll downtown. But as I walk Main Street, I see a lot of vacant storefronts and boarded up buildings.
I guess my question to you is, what role does Blacksburg – Council – have in recruiting and/or providing the environment by which retailers can successfully cater to this second camp? There are a lot of vacancies – I’ve had several business owners tell me their rents are high, their buildings are in poor shape … this is a landlord issue, but what role does the Town have? Can the Town provide subsidies to landlords to encourage them to fill their storefronts with a wider mix of retailers? Are tax breaks available to landlords who make renovations that don’t force rents to rise concurrently?
VT isn’t going away, and that’s a good thing. But it feels as if the businesses that ARE staying open are doing so for the students, and Town residents are being forced to decide whether they want to assimilate. This is one reason why for years there’s been the discussion of a talent drain leaving the area … how do we provide the social and shopping opportunities for those of us who might have closed the books a little more than a few years ago?
And, since it’s been mentioned a few times, I bought my underwear at Target.
Thanks for taking the time to have a reasoned discussion.
The Town approved the Sonic through the CUP process. Any statement to the contrary is pure unadulterated BS. I saw two candidates to the school board claim in editorials about Blacksburg’s business climate state that the town did not allow the Sonic. (One was elected, one was not.) Again, not true. It was approved on the second submittal after responding to requests from the first submittal. This is standard procedure for a CUP request. I don’t know why they chose not to build. I am guessing it had something to do with the economic downturn.
A question I ask folks who make some kind of complaint about the Town’s business climate is very simple.
Do you live in Town?
Do you own a business in Town but live elsewhere?
I care about both groups but I care most about those that live in town and those that live in town and operate a business.
I am much more concerned about what Town residents and business owners think about the Town than I am about other folks who live outside the Town, outside the county or outside the region.
That is how it should be.
If you choose to move out of Town, you give up your right to be taken very seriously on a whole host of issues. You don’t pay town taxes and you don’t vote. It is often amazing to me that some think I or other elected officials should overly care about the views of those who do not live in Town and do not vote any more than citizens of Cburg, Pearisburg, Wytheville or Radford care about my views of what happens within their limits. That is just not rational or consistent wth electoral politics.
I would not have been elected twice if I didn’t have a pretty good idea what town residents think and want for their community. It is complex and sometimes difficult but most folks care about the same kinds of things all people care about in each and every community.
They want a high quality of life, excellent schools and a good mix of opportunity for fun and recreation for the whole family and good business opportunities that represent our diverse and town/gown oriented culture. We are trying our best to provide that.
Thanks for listening.
John, once again you are sugar coating the Sonic situation. The rancor surrounding the process from the various community activists toward the First&Main project is obvious.
Finally, I would say that you know how to get at least 1883 people to vote for you. I’m not sure what the registered voter total is for Blacksburg, but I doubt that getting that many people to vote for you gives you a mandate to represent the views of small groups of activists who are very good at being loud about their views. There are plenty of people reading this discussion that do vote in the town of Blacksburg. I understand not paying much attention to the non-voters, but remember they may be future voters and potential future business owners.
And thanks for posting as a council member. You were complaining about people posting anonymously, I certainly avoid posting full details on topics like this, largely based on what I have read on the BURG list during the anti-Walmart campaign. There are some people in that group I would rather not know who I am
I’m with Philip on the anonymity thing, I know someone who was banned from the BURG discusson group at the height of the F&M fight because he dared to point out the absurdity of some of their claims. While people were wailing about “they want to build a Wal-Mart next to Beeks and they sell alcohol!” he pointed out that not two blocks away in Gables was the ABC Store, Kroger, and the Vintage Cellar, not to mention the Food Lion right behind Kipps. There were other things like that that were exposed that the BURG people didn’t like, so he got the heave ho.
John, you can be obtuse about the Sonic and say “they received a CUP” but you are overlooking a big piece of the picture in the middle of the whole process. The Sonic people applied for the first CUP in good faith but the BURG types didn’t want that type of business in town for a variety of reasons (pay issues, pollutions, the type of food it served, whatever). The town piled on a lot of stipulations that needed to be met before it would grant the CUP, some of which were way outside the bounds of reasonable. The folks from Sonic cried “foul” because they knew what the game was, looked just a few blocks down Main St. and saw the new Wendy’s with not many restrictions on its drive-through CUP. A lawsuit was threatened and the town considered what that outcome would be — pretty much a sure loss because it couldn’t defend its actions. The Sonic folks were invited to resubmit its application for a CUP and the whole process ran again. This time there weren’t as many roadblocks thrown up (although there were still unhappy people about the business). The CUP was issued, but the delay pushed the timeline for submitting construction plans into the early days of the financial crisis. Sonic decided that it was not the time to be opening new restaurants and said, “maybe later.” Had the town not listened to the loud minority that didn’t want the business and instead done things straight up and approved the first CUP with minor restrictions, the Sonic might have been built on schedule and provided another business to attract people to that part of town.
The same nit-picking went on when the Kroger delegation showed up to ask for permission to build the fuel center on UCB. People came out of the woodwork to block that business with all sorts of wild claims. Yes, exposure to gasoline is harmful, but it takes long-term exposure in close proximity, not being within a block or two of the gas pumps. That didn’t seem to matter to some of the parents from the day care center, some planning commission members and town council members. If it is such a problem, why aren’t the kids at Kipps dropping like flies from the Speedway? Kroger was bent over and did quite a bit more than it really needed to just to get that station built, more that it would need to do in any other locality — more landscaping, a traffic light (unsyncronized with the light at Glade, thanks), a fence around the CVS sidewalk, muted speakers that can only be used to communicate with customers (no music, horrors, it might disturb the traffic on UCB).
Again, more regulations from one small town that probably C’burg, Montgomery Co., Radford, and Pulaski Co. combined impose on a developer or a business.
Hi John,
I live in the Woodland Hills/Deercroft area. My children attend Blacksburg schools and I consider myself part of the Blacksburg community. The most frustrating part of living where I do is the inability to participate in Blacksburg issues and politics because we are technically outside of the town limits. I for one would love to see the Ellett Valley community become part of the Blacksburg town and would gladly pay town taxes for the privilege. I know several of my neighbors would agree with me on this issue.
John, please review the Roanoke Times articles on The Sonic situation. TC denied the SOnic permit and after realizing they would certainly lose the resulting litigation they backtracked.
http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/wb/175859
Probably good for everyone in this discussion to review the Roanoke Times articles on First&Main because their seems to be a fair bit of spin going on by some of the posters. (Myself included, but then I am an Internet troll
So, John, I am a town resident. Many of the posters have indicated they are town residents. I think part of the question here is, what can we do to help solve this problem? We see the need. Opinions are like assholes…
Is there a way we can galvanize the energy that we clearly have around concern of empty store fronts to actually help? I have a friend who is a resident. He and his wife moved here about 2 years ago (in the town of Blacksburg). He wanted to open a French restaurant in town, but said he received no response at first, to hostile response when received, from the landlord. His impression was that they weren’t interested in changing spaces from empty to occupied. Is there something we could do to change this, if that is the case? Are there incentives we could have for new businesses?
How can we as residents work with you as our representatives to help push toward a solution? While the economy has taken a downturn, Blacksburg has thriving businesses like Rackspace and Modea, and therefore employed citizens (granted many of C’burg).
Another item of note is the extremely inflated cost of real estate in Blacksburg. If you drive 10 miles in any direction the price drops by $100k. I paid $200k more for my house here than the one I had in a suburb of Atlanta. It was a hefty price, but one I bit the bullet on so that I could be a resident. Real estate prices are a big factor in why people choose not to live here. Is there something that could be done on this front to bring it to closer parity with the surrounding region?
Just my 2 cents. I want to help. Let me know how I can.
Cynthia
I second your opinion that real estate prices are overly inflated in Blacksburg. I’m a recent college graduate working at Tech. I’m in my mid twenties and making entry level money. The problem is that Blacksburg doesn’t have housing (rental or otherwise) that meets my needs. I can either choose to live in and among College Students, and put up with them. Or I can use my whole paycheck to pay for extremely expensive townhomes/single family homes. I feel like in another place I would be able to find houses that we could meet our needs (starter homes) for my salary, but we cannot afford to buy anything in Blacksburg, we would have to go the the surrounding areas.
Blacksburg needs some middle ground in housing between junky college apartments and nice housing for middle aged, middle class couples.
Cynthia, Why would you be willing to lose $200K of your investment in your home? That seems odd.
Jon – I don’t know what you’re asking… The $200k difference is in reference to the house that I owned in ATL, which I bought for $180k, and the (smaller square footage, *slightly* nicer interior features, comparable parcel size) house that I bought when I moved to the town of Blacksburg cost $380k. My house in ATL was only purchased about 6 years prior to the move to VA, and I actually still own the ATL house / rent it out because in the current market I can’t manage to sell it unless I am willing to do so for a loss from the original purchase price (which I’m not).
I agree Nick and Cynthia to what your observations are and desires. This is a very complex issue and one that a simple blog posting will not be able to do justice. Let’s talk offline if you are willing in more detail and let me know what I can do to help your neighbors or just agree to meet and talk through some issues.
Simply stated though the college market for housing skews everything, that and Bburg still is a very desirable location; again because of the schools, VT, CRC, etc…We have plenty of older housing stock that would be great for starter homes but the student housing market snaps most of those up and rent and demand being what they are that has driven the price of homes way up. I agree that we need to encourage in as many ways as possible more so called median priced housing and so called work force housing options. We are working on that and are hoping to have this type in the Old MS development through HUD grants and CDBG monies. We have some god examples of these types on Prospect, Lee and Wilson Streets. We have been working with Janaka Casper and the Community Housing Partners firm.
As a Dillon rule state localities are not allowed to pass laws that have not already been passed by the general assembly. This curtails our ability to go after landlords and vacant buildings in some meaningful way. Trust me when I say that we are very open and amenable to differing and successful approaches towards addressing these kinds of issues. We would like to do more and are open to suggestions.
Philip, I don’t know what you mean about sugar coating. Those are the facts. The Sonic was approved. Also, I have no complaints about folks posting anonymously. I understand that. It’s just not an even playing field in that regard.
But really, the candidates who offered differing opinions and options both in the 2009 and 2011 elections had every means at their disposal to get elected if their views were in the majority. They lost both times, resoundingly. I received over 2800 votes and almost 1000 more than the next guy and 1300 more than the next. The folks that vote for me are not a loud minority. If they were, I wouldn’t get elected.
One thing I would like to post is the original proposal for First and Main. This is the proposal submitted by Fairmount and their partners to the TC asking for the zoning change on the so called rugby field. I think it is very eye openinig and clarifies in many ways what went wrong. I still stand by the view that if they had built what they had proposed they would be in much better shape than they are now. That is partly an educated opinion but I think it is also based in fact.
You got the votes because you are a reasonable person, and folks are hopeful that you will be the mediator that solves some of these problems without preference for the ridiculous Southgate Mafia that wants to cut off our access to 460, or preference for a downtown that has no affordable parking or preference for some Big Box businesses like Kroger that pushes the small guy out of business at the expense of Big Boxes that actually add value and unavailable items.
Well, John, I guess history IS written by the winners. In 2008, Town Council voted down the Sonic SUP (now called a CUP). That’s when I made my comments about locating a drive-through on Route 460 business. After that, Fairmont filed suit against the town: http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/168893 The new Council then accepted some truly minute changes and proclaimed that the ordinance had been much improved, and approved it: http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/183931
As for “But really, the candidates who offered differing opinions and options both in the 2009 and 2011 elections had every means at their disposal to get elected if their views were in the majority.” I must say I did not have members of Citizens First (now a subdivision of BURG) verbally promoting me as part of the Democratic ticket, as was done at the polls for the three winners this November. (We were ALL independents.) I also couldn’t physically handle door-to-door campaigning, so “every means” was not at my disposal.
This is Krisha Chachra. My fellow councilman, John B, has done a good job of outlining his opinion on several issues that have come up in this discussion. I only wanted to jump in to provide insights on a few things that have been said since I am the council member John was referring to that attends all the twice-monthly Merchants of First and Main meetings. I have been doing this as a volunteer for two years since I joined council (this is not a council appointed committee assignment). I care about the merchants and have formed personal bonds and friendships with them over the years. It is important to me, and to council, that the current merchants are not forgotten and don’t feel they are alone during this frustrating time. Yes, the merchants are frustrated, but mainly with the leasing company who take a long time to respond to them to discuss re-negotiating their leases. I have called several people who work at the leasing agency on behalf of the merchants and asked for better cooperation and communication, since they’ve done some things that don’t foster a good relationship. Since then, a few more of the merchants have been able to re-negotiate their leases. Others have chosen to now deal with the agents through their own lawyers. But since the bank, who owns the property, is looking to sell the property, it seems the leasing agents don’t have a sense of urgency to respond to the lawyers.
We discuss this information every other week at the meetings and meetings have become a support system for the merchants. In addition to me, there is a representative from the Blacksburg Partnership at every meeting and we listen, try to help solve the issues that we can, advise where we can, and talk strategy on how we can get more foot traffic with the resources that are available. I have encouraged the merchants to follow the lead of Downtown Blacksburg Inc. (the merchants of Downtown Blacksburg) so they can also apply for funding with Town of Blacksburg to help with marketing expenses and promoting their events. The Blacksburg Partnership has offered to help them with the paperwork if they want to pursue becoming a non-profit. They are in the process of looking into the feasibility of this. As of right now, the leasing agents handle the marketing budget but, in my opinion, aren’t familiar with the media that needs to be contacted to promote First and Main events. It would be better if the merchants have more control over these decisions. As of right now, we do most of First and Main’s promotion through signage on the property and online through Blacksburg Alert or on our Facebook pages.
Another council member and I have called the bank and spoken at length with them about working together to attract new businesses to the town center. The mayor and town manager have also tried to reach the bank but they are not calling back at this time. In addition, the Blacksburg Partnership and others have called and re-visited many of the stores who had shown interest before including Kohl’s, Target, another grocery store, Trader Joe’s and even the movie theater. As of right now, there is a little interest but it is difficult to follow up when the owners are not responding to the leads. We will continue to try and yes, we can always do more.
A few of you asked how residents could help and I think that is a crucial part of this. Blacksburg residents form an involved community. As part of the Chamber of Commerce, I know that our business community is a well-connected group whose reach of contacts is diverse and broad. I would hope any resident who has a desire to locate a particular business at First and Main, or a resident who might know a decision maker in the ranks of that business, would please contact them and encourage them to think about First and Main and take a look at the Town Center. One resident who attended the cake walk I was running at the First and Main Halloween event (BOO-DO), shared a story with me. When she lived in another community years ago, she wanted a Trader Joe’s nearby. She emailed the management over and over for years and finally they came to visit her community and did finally open a store there. The power of community voices is loud, as many of you already know. Council and the Partnership can continue to make our calls, support the current merchants and stand ready to help however we can, but there are a wealth of people in this community who care about First and Main and the health of our town that can help us too.
In the meantime, the other thing we can do is make sure we continue to patronize the merchants. Keep shopping, eating and attending the events. Besides the two Partnership events (Brew-Doo and Fork and Cork), the merchants of F&M also host their own attractions. For two years, I have helped them organize and emcee their Easter Egg hunt, BOO-DO, their Valentines event and Christmas sidewalk sales. I would hope that all of you, town residents or not, who obviously care enough about First and Main to be involved in this discussion here, will help the merchants’ efforts and support them in staying in business. Yes, we do need more there. And as long as I’m on council, I will pledge to do what I can (and continue to do what I’m doing) to keep the center alive. I wasn’t on the council when the First and Main decision was made. But I think what is important is that the center is here now, and so are so many merchants. We have to support them. What matters to me is not what the center was supposed to be, but what it is now and what it can be and will be if we don’t give up on it. I would encourage you to not forget the stores that are currently there and are trying hard to stay.
If any of you would like to discuss First and Main further or have ideas about bringing business there, please contact me at kchachra@blacksburg.gov. I would be willing to meet with you, listen and share more of what I know and understand. As you can imagine, the issue is a lot more complicated than can be discussed on a blog. Thank you for reading.
Krisha and John – thank you so much for engaging with the community on this post. I know your jobs are not easy. I just emailed you both my contact information – I would love to help and be engaged in any way that may be useful.
For anyone who may be interested, I created a Facebook Group to try to show Trader Joe’s that we had a level of interest in bringing them to the NRV, you can “like” the group here if you are so inclined: https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=134967663208750
Cynthia,
That’s what I’m talking about! Bravo and thanks for getting involved and helping in this way. You know, a few years ago we had a page like this for “Bring Chipotle to Blacksburg”…and guess what! Now we do!
Not saying it was the reason but it sure does bring the idea to the forefront and it gets people talking! It certainly can’t hurt. I “liked” and joined your page and will be in touch in the new year! All the best and thanks for getting involved with the solution! I appreciate it!
What is missing here is that due to the present ownership (the bank) of F&M, any sort of progress and/or development is just not going to happen. Banks are not in the commercial development business nor do they want to be in that business. There’s a reason they don’t return phone calls or promote the property; they don’t WANT to! I’m sure the management company is getting paid a pre-negotiated corporate fee that is less than market so they don’t care either.
The complex is over 75% vacant/undeveloped, doesn’t have a good leasing history and doesn’t have any anchors. It is losing money. In this economy, commercial vacancies are at an all-time high. First and Main has virtually no redeeming qualities for a commercial buyer and based on the books, would also be difficult to finance. On paper, F&M is a disaster.
Rumor has it that the bank wants to auction the property; however, I have been hearing that rumor ever since the bank took it over. They could be waiting for a certain fiscal quarter to get it off their books or collateral finance terms – who knows. I don’t see it listed for sale on LoopNet.
The only way to really turn F&M around is to find a buyer…sooner rather than later. Preferably, a buyer who is local and has a vested interest in our local economy. That being said, in order to move large commercial developments in this economy, most areas are looking to public-private partnerships, tax incentives, development incentives, etc. Have any of these options been considered by the Town? Has the Town been actively soliciting a buyer for F&M?
The “town” may be concerned and trying to do something, but when you have a certain member of town council and hard-core BURG operative working at cross-purposes with any positive efforts by continuing to perpetuate the “bait and switch” lie, it will be hard to make any progress. From the Thursday front page of the Roanoke Times article, “First & Main could be seeking owner as well as tenants” (see http://www.roanoke.com/news/wht/wb/302686)
The problems First & Main faces “were largely due to a departure from the original plans presented to the town and an unrealistic, short-sighted economic forecast,” town council member Don Langrehr said in an email.
Addressing the developer, he said, “Why did you build a project that is 100 percent retail without the office and residential uses that would have strongly supported the retail operations?”
What’s interesting is how Langrehr (and the Roanoke Times and BURG) give downtown Blacksburg a free pass while piling on First & Main. Sure, residential might be nice, but someone should ask Bob Pack how those condos in Kent Square are working out. Are they all rented? Have they helped fill all the commercial and office spaces in that development? Last I saw, there were vacancies and yet another variance was in the works to allow an office to take over the ground floor commercial space that once held Ben & Jerry’s ice cream parlor.
It isn’t that many blocks from Main Street to residences, yet there are a number of storefronts that have been long vacant — the old Annie Kaye’s on the corner of Washington Street (seems to be a prime spot, with parking), the old dry cleaner next to Cabo Fish Taco, the controversial old bank building on the corner of Roanoke St., and the space left vacant when Sharkey’s moved next door. But no one seems to be throwing rocks like the rocks being thrown at F&M over these vacant spaces.
As to the residential development Langrehr seems to think should have been added to F&M, would it be of the “affordable” type that the town seems to favor, with “affordable” being an associate professor’s salary. It has worked well to keep the riff-raff at bay although it hasn’t been good for the police officers, young teachers, and secretarial staff at VT and the various CRC companies who would like to live close to where they work.